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Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.20 19:39:00 - [1] Speed is the FOTM, it was always there, but it was at a low level ... now entire corps/alliances are nanoed up, you cannot stop a gang of 20 nanos, no matter what you bring you will lose (lets be honest, no-one brings 10+ rapiers/huginns, you're better off bringing a big gang of your own nanoed up ships) ... if you do manage to spook them they run, and that is not a win except for the nano pilot. I read in the sewer that is COAD someone posted in jest that the minimum required skill to join their corp is acceleration control 5. I thought at the time I read it that there probably are corps that have that requirement. The problem with some speed tanked ships (the really fast ones) is that its not the ship and mods thats the problem, its the lack of a stacking nerf with the speed implants. The problem with the standard cookie cutter nano is that you would be lucky to hit one, and if you did hit them they leg it. If _some_ medium T2 ammo was buffed enough so that they could be hit >50% of the time that would be a decent counter, or if the heavy precisions got enough stats to do damage to a 7km/s ship Also LOL at the muppets who say that the vagabond is ok, just nerf all the other ships that are nanoed up... That would NOT change the situation one tiny bit as all those peeps whose ishtars/sacs/curses/whatever speed nerfed would take 2 months to get into vagabonds with T2 ac's.. then what?... nerf all the peeps who arent minmatar so they cant fly vagabonds any more. /Offtopic/I am pretty sure this forum software is the worst I have ever come across. It required me to log in 3 fricking times before I could even post and then ate my post twice (latest firefox). For the peeps who say its my computer; _this_ is the only forum I have ever come across that does this. CCP, use a commercially available forum for god sakes, this one is terminally borked.
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.20 19:53:00 - [2] A common theme in the nerf speed threads is pro speed people say "bring a huginn/rapier", "bring a tracking enhanced BC/HAC, you can hit him when he can hit you", "bring a heavy neutralizing ship". The thing is the nano ship gets a _one fit > all_ while the poor sap in the tracking enhanced BC gets pwned by the first hostile HAC he comes across (non speed tanked one that is) because he has no tank. Everyone else has to change their fit, in some cases to such an extent as to gimp their tank, to scare off the fast ships.... while the fast ships dont have to ever change their fitting. Yeah nanos get killed, but its rare, its mostly lag or another fast ship or rarely to a gate camp. The kill ratios of speed tanked ships are too high, nerf them to hell.
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:42:00 - [3] What is the fastest explosion velocity attainable with skills/implants/rigs/ships? Is there any missle that can do significant damage to a ship doing 5km/s (assume massive sig radius)?
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:03:00 - [4] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Call'Da Poleece What is the fastest explosion velocity attainable with skills/implants/rigs/ships? Is there any missle that can do significant damage to a ship doing 5km/s (assume massive sig radius)? Precision lights can get a very high explosion velocity but they won't be doing much DPS. So that leaves heavies/hams and cruise missles for anti nano gang work ... I think I got a precision heavy missle going at ~7200m/s ...but its explosion velocity was only 1500m/s or something like that. So that would be a possible solution, make some kind of heavy missle have a crazy high velocity and explosion velocity ... obviously it would have to have a suitable drawback, but it would give some of the missle users a chance to drive off a nano ship
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:29:00 - [5] Edited by: Call''Da Poleece on 26/03/2008 14:30:55 the nanofags are still circling Goumindong, but not having any effect, his forum tank is holding... Nerf snakes, they are little antichrists that make their hosts crazy and want to argue with anyone who says 'speed is bad' while not making any sense or answering well thought out arguments. Hopefully CCP will oblige and we will see lots of "waaaa, they nerfed my vaga, I'm leaving" threads (accompanied by the sound of squeaks, boings etc as their toys hit the floor) /edit ... spelling
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Goumindong Quote: Now it happens that this fighting style is SO efficient (specially against those who don't use it, what a strange coincidence Rolling Eyes), that each day more peeps jump on the bandwagon. So what you are saying is that nanos are so effective that everyone has to join up or be killed by the nanos. Yup, that is exactly what he's saying. And more and more people will jump on the bandwagon ..... until the wheels come off
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.29 21:09:00 - [7] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby - before edit lol. Again I say take a look at the fittings of players that have died to nanos, and the kill stats of those nanos that have been killed. Most are like that previous "proof" post which shows one thing: Players are NOT adapting and fitting to fight nanos. Heavy missiles, heavy Ogres and FIGHTERS against small fast ships. Even your average carebear knows better than that. Small? a vagabond is a frigate now? Quote: Eve is rock-paper-scissors, the only real difference is you CAN use modules and tactics to emulate other styles but players refuse to do so. Tank is rock, gank is paper, nano is scissors. Since Gank (paper) is ALWAYS fitting to attack Tank (rock), they can't really hurt scissors. Course if they fit to hurt scissors, then they are not able to kill rock and are left vulnerable to that. Whenever the "tried and true" fittings are called into doubt its a good situation, IMHO. wtf? gank is paper?
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:07:00 - [8] Look, dont you slow carebear idiot not-knowing-a-nano-if-it-hit-you-between-the-eyes people get it, if someone spends 110mil isk on polycarbons then its all perfectly balanced, because thats loads of isk. (not to mention all the other hundreds spent on faction mods, they make it even more balanced, in fact they make the nanoship the weakest ship in the game) Similarly, IRL, people who drive Ferraris dont get caught for speeding fines because they spent loads as well. Nerf speed implants and polys and stack nerf all agility/speed mods. Speed only makes perfect sense if you are the one doing the speeding.
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:18:00 - [9] Originally by: ***zilla Originally by:** Call'Da Poleece Look, dont you slow carebear idiot not-knowing-a-nano-if-it-hit-you-between-the-eyes people get it, if someone spends 110mil isk on polycarbons then its all perfectly balanced, because thats loads of isk. (not to mention all the other hundreds spent on faction mods, they make it even more balanced, in fact they make the nanoship the weakest ship in the game) Utility does not set price nor does price set utility. Just because something is expensive does not mean it is good, nor is something good mean that it is expensive. The price spent on bling does not mean a setup is balanced. For example look at the Burn Eden where the owner spent a lot of isk on a battleship setup that he agrees is not balanced. Polycarbons are not balanced because they are expensive. They are expensive because either tight supply or because they're not balanced. Other rigs such as trimarks and ccc's have dropped in price to around 13-14mil due to supply matching demand in a competitive market. I'd argue that the imbalance with polycarbons have increased demand to exceed supply. This has increased the cost of polycarbons relative to other rigs while most of the rig market has fallen in cost. If nanos were balanced the price of polycarbons should be around 13-14mil. This would increase variety as more players fit polycarbons to ceptors and other ships meant to go fast for a tackle. Arguing that cost means something is balanced isn't valid. The high cost of most speed modules further indicate that something is broken. Economics 101. hehe, your sarcasm detector is broken methinks .. I rolled that out there for all the pro nano peeps who seem to think that the paid loads for their ships/mods/implants that they have the right to pwn everything bar capitals in them. The price of tritanium bars is most of the cost of the polys ... they are also used in the cargo expander rigs
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Remove Polycarbs and Snake sets out of the equation and even Vagas can be hit effectively engaged. The ONLY alteration that needs to be made to "balance" nanos is to hit those modules/implants. Everything else recommended also kills less-extreme setups and removes speed as a viable tank. I can't see even Goum saying my 3.3km/sec stabber is over balanced when anything with medium ACs can hit me as well as I hit them.... You are probably right about not nerfing istabs/overdrives ... speed implants and polycarbs are overpowered. Maybe just make snakes not work with anything larger than a frigate and bring polycarbs back in line with other rigs
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Ephemeron Again, we still don't an agreement over conditions of the fight. This fight has to have some influence on the discussion of nanoships. It should not be a fight just for the sake of fighting. Once we agree to have a fight, we both have to decide what it would mean with regards to our nanoship ideas. I know you agree to fight as is, but you haven't specified the meaning of that fight. Appologizing for your wrong ideas would be one of those meanings. It's pointless for me to fight outside the normal pattern unless you put some idea on the line. I know its english because I recognise the words, but they are arranged in such a way as to be unintelligible. Can you post the english version of this? or is it just "bawk"? Quote: If I agree that you have won this fight in F-T, because I ran and cloaked, without losing a ship. Can I also say that non-nano ships win fights against nanos if they simply drive them off? just a simple question, it has important implication for this whole discussion. Nope, a non nano gang are defending, unless they have a set up that can kill a gang of nanos. They cannot claim a victory if they didnt kill anything, neither can the nano gang I suppose, but if just one or two of your gang get popped, like the huginns/rapiers/neut ships, suddenly you are dead meat (unless you have a good remote repair setup going on). Also, the nano gang can go to the next system/constellation and kill your mates, would they think you scored a victory driving off a nano gang?
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.03.31 19:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Chimay Edited by: Chimay on 31/03/2008 19:01:22 When you engage, Just because the fight didnÆt go the way you wanted shouldnÆt mean a free escape. Eve is about Risk, that is no risk. If the person you attacked bested you,it should be just that. That reward is removed, were back to square one with warp core stabs. IÆm not debating the cost of the ship, but that hardly justifies it. You fly what you can afford to loose. Just in this case the options of loose is narrowed down to a small situational list, which is the only problem. Bingo, you fly what you can afford to lose, value of ship has no bearing on PVP risk . What does have a bearing on PVP risk however is extreme speed, because fast ships can (almost) always disengage from slow ships. Make snakes/other speed related implants only affect frigate sized ships, make polys have similar percentage stats as other rigs.
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.01 08:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Crusty Clout Anti-Nano This group consists of anyone WTF owned by a nano or, the all to common (FAKE) nano pilots ( the guys who brag about how good they are in there nano, but want it nerfed (yea there full of ** basically)). They want nanos nerfed for the obvious reason that nanos can beat them in pvp ( any1 who says otherwise is an idiot) Originally by:** Lord WarATron Also, to the guy talking about "fake nano" pilots, here is some stats for you My Zealot setup for speed = 332 kills - 0 losses. Some Fake nano pilot right there all right Less than 1 year old mining alt pwned
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:28:00 - [14] Edited by: Call''Da Poleece on 01/04/2008 11:28:30 Originally by: deadmeet Nano ship have to sacrify their DPS, the result is that they have to be several to kill a BS size ship. So it is normal that BS ships have to be several to kill a nano ship... That is EXACTLY what happens in 0.0, quite large gangs of nanoed up ships can take on almost any other gang (enough dps between them to take out any long range webber/scramblers very quickly) after which everything else is an easy kill .... neuts do not really help, they make one nano ship disengage and come back in a few minutes (neut versus one nano ship = good, versus lots of nano ships its just farting in a gale).... also if there is only a couple of ships doing the neutralizing they are dead in short order too. Originally by: deadmeet Nano are balanced, you just have to make a fit versus them (like making a fit against long range ship, like make a fit against shield tank or armor tank... Like other tank system in fact. What different fit do people use against a shield or armour tank? I fit a mega the same no matter what BS I would be fighting (excepting of course close range versus long range) On topic again, the 'slow' gang has to use a specific ship type and fit to kill you, while you use the same cookie cutter zoom zoom fit to kill/run away versus anything. CCP, stop the nano madness; make snakes/speed implants only affect frigate sized ships. I'm the short fortuneteller who escaped from prison: a small medium at large.
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Crusty Clout lol, well my Ishtar nano has 442 kills - 0 deaths.....so I win? And that* ladies and gentleman is the reason that nano's need to be nerfed, little to no risk. Two players in this thread accounting for almost 800 kills with no nano ship losses ... Can a nano apologiser please spin this to show that nano ships are balanced? Please limit your answer to 500 words or less and use the terms "weak tank" and "low dps" at least 20 times. Bonus points for using "rapiers/huginns", "neuts" and "domination webs", they apparently pwn nano ships. In fact you may even get points by getting in a sneaky "tracking distuptors" or even "ecm". *Though I have to say that without a KB link proving said allegations of nanouberness by crusty cacks it sounds unlikely.
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:10:00 - [16] Originally by: techzer0 Ugh... you're not the average nano-pilot though are you? I had over 360 kills in my passive tanked Onyx (top speed of a whopping 220+m/s or w/e) before it died. I have a friend with an absolution with over 1000 kills, and it's most definitely not nano'd. low sec gate camp ships != nano Quote: Your comparison is crap, don't get me wrong when I say that, but it is... even though you're on the a similar side of the argument as I am. I can't exactly say that you're on the same side when you make statements like that... You honestly do sound like that Burn-Eden pilot who always says his 18km/s nano-Mach is so overpowered, but continues to fly it... He at least admits that the system is borked and as long as it is not declared an exploit he continues to use it. Burn Eden have always been like that, they use setups that minimize risk, speed is the best way to remove risk right now. You wont hear him whinging on the forums about losing it. CCP, stop the nano madness; make snakes/speed implants only affect frigate sized ships. I'm the short fortuneteller who escaped from prison: a small medium at large.
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.01 16:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Darth Pheonix Originally by: Trojanman190 Truth This man speaks truth. Blobs are the real issue. Bringing 50 ships to fight 3 is not fun. Flying nanoships is fun. Therefore people do what's fun and fly nano ships, they make the game fun. Side note: It's interesting that the most vocal anti-nano person in this thread is a lead figure in an alliance that specializes almost exclusively in blob tactics.... altierior motives maybe Bob are generally not known for their blobs, in fact the specialise in fighting larger alliances/groups of alliances. Or were you talking about the goons? I can guarantee you that they have plenty of nano ship pilots as well and we should count ourselves lucky they havent taken any notice of this thread ......
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Jade190 .....because it pwns your blob..... The thing is, pretty soon the only thing you will see are blobs of nanofags.... already (in some areas), you are far more likely to run into a roaming nanofag gang than a camp
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Ephemeron oh yea, blame the homosexuals! Tip for all the politically correct peeps, substitute in your mind nanoperson-who-likes-mens-bottoms any time you see nanofag.
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:02:00 - [20] Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov I blame A-War and Kaar. Stupid nanophoon video. Did you HAVE to post it? Mind you I would like to see a video of that machariel that can do 15km/s in action
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Ephemeron ...stupid post... nanofag much?
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Niobius Julius well comparing stabs and nanos is a bit well... lame. Stabs purpose is to avoid fight, nanos purpose is to be able to fight. are you comparing pre nerf stabs to nanos? looks like you are comparing post nerf wcs to nanos. Pre-nerf like the other guys said wcs were fitted on a very very large number of ships wthat pvp'd, post nerf they are as you say only for people avoiding a fight because they nerf targeting. Quote: And why there should be no possibilities to disengange? because that ability is mostly in the nanos favour. If every ship had the possibility of pulsing its mwd once or twice and then being able to warp there would likely not be a problem (except probably the nanowhingers say they couldnt get a kill) Quote: I understand that it is very frustrating when lonely ishtar escapes your 20 man t1 ship gang. "OMG! fkin nanofahg! He should have stayed there not moving and let us kill him in 2 secs. Lets go whine on forums." The only place you will see a 20 man all T1 gang is in high sec or possibly in a system in Delve (getting blown up). And also the chances of finding a nanoship out on its own are getting more remote every day, the vast majority of gangs roaming 0.0 are nano's CCP, stop the nano madness; make snakes/speed implants only affect frigate sized ships. I'm the short fortuneteller who escaped from prison: a small medium at large.
Call'Da Poleece Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.03 15:04:00 - [23] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 03/04/2008 14:37:13 Id be happy if nano fits were at least within moderation. Thats the real issue. Its not that speed tanking should be totally removed, just moderated so as not to be overpowered. indications of 'overpowered' 1) Frig classed ships outrunning frig classed missiles ( there is possibly room to debate this however) 2) Cruiser class ships outrunning not only cruiser classed missiles easily but all the while being able to perma tank frig weapons which hit for bugger all 3) Any method that has extremely limited counters- and those generally being high skill based (ie the minnie recons- neuts will I agree work but they are still very limited) 4) Counters to blobs should not equal total immunity to them (that goes for cloaking as well) 5) Just like x2MWD ravens, throns bristling ecm, Damp swarms, Nos everythings, anything that is abused to the point where diversity is lost and the vast majority of fits mimic a single method is a CLEAR INDICATION that that method is too overpowered. I just hope the nerf is moderate, so as still to allow nanos as a possible fitting but just perhaps 30% less effective. Frigs up to 10-12km/s, Cruisers under 3.5km/s and bs definately under 1200m/s i think would be good ballparks to work around we all know the nerf is incoming, the question is the severity of the nerf, what mods or ships or implants need adjustment. Personally I dont mind ridiculously fast frigates as long as some sort of physics rules were in place so a fast frigate cant bump a battleship all over the place... Cruiser sized ships and above that are immune to cruise missles is another thing entirely.
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.05 10:53:00 - [24] So we are all agreed that nanos need countermeasures against them boosted? or even snakes getting a slap of the nerf bat? yes? good.
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:16:00 - [25] nerf nanos!! Hey Goum, start another thread. Nightnightx will give you free bumps while making nano pilots look like gibberish spewing kids. CCP, stop the nano madness; make snakes/speed implants only affect frigate sized ships. I'm the short fortuneteller who escaped from prison: a small medium at large.
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:47:00 - [26] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Call'Da Poleece nerf nanos!! Hey Goum, start another thread. Nightnightx will give you free bumps while making nano pilots look like gibberish spewing kids. Nerf noobs in NPC corps with no clue. see!! free bumps AND he makes as much sense as a kid, you cant lose!! CCP, stop the nano madness; make snakes/speed implants only affect frigate sized ships. I'm the short fortuneteller who escaped from prison: a small medium at large.

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